Snobbery at Its Finest

"whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU" (whiskey-business) 02/21/2015 at 01:00 • Filed to: None

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I'm confused why car journalists give hard plastics such a terrible rap. They seemed to be just fine for decades, and I think many interiors look quite nice with a fair amount of them. Just because everything isn't wrapped with rare endangered alpaca pelts or Alcantara doesn't mean they aren't well made, functional or. . . Dare I say. . . Beautiful?

Big Bubba Ray > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:02

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THIS DASH ISN'T MADE OF WHALE PENIS.

INTERIOR: 2/10

My citroen won't start > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:11

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Well, cars are quite expensive things. You expect expensive things to have a certain level of quality, hard plastics are a sign of cheapness and cost cutting, especially today. Also, people hate accepting the mediocre, "see my sonata is fancy, it has shiny soft bits "

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > Big Bubba Ray 02/21/2015 at 01:11

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How can a car at this price not have standard whale dong leather? Would not recommend.

GhostZ > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:15

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My guess is it's because Journalists consistently receive usually the top trim of a car when reviewing, usually with most of the options, so they rarely see hard plastics on the interior. When they do, it stands out as being particularly bad.

Clown Shoe Pilot > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:15

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I don't get why Alcantara is so damn exclusive. It's a polyester blend fake ass plastic suede. When I covered my kart seat in it, I bought a couple yards of it for around 10 bucks. I'm a terrible upholsterer so my seat looked kinda crappy around the more complex curves but still... 10 bucks.

Blake Noble > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:16

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Blame Car and Driver for this. Actually, blame David E. Davis for this. After all, he started C&D 's love obsession with Hondas and BMWs, and the staff never stopped drinking that Kool Aid after he left. Hondas and BMWs did have better materials than American cars for a long time, that is true. But it wasn't and isn't the "end all be all." Anyhow, because C&D was all about that Honda and BMW poon, they had to go on and on about how soft the dashboard in a Honda Accord is is and how the dashboard of a Chevy Corsica felt like they were caressing John Goodman's ballsack.

I guess if you keep on about something long enough, it's bound to be repeated elsewhere too. Why? I dunno. I hear David E. Davis was, like, a fucking wizard or something. Maybe it's because that. All I know is that he was a smooth-talkin' Kentucky boy who lived in Michigan.

But is a soft-touch dash something that Joe Average gives a shit about? Eh, not really, no. If Joe Average really gave a damn about how soft his fucking dashboard was, then Chrysler wouldn't have sold one, single car — even with rebates — back during the later half of its Daimler days/its Cerebus days before bankruptcy time.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > My citroen won't start 02/21/2015 at 01:18

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Maybe cars wouldn't be so expensive if interior materials were so heavily considered in quality? Just a thought, I know that's not the whole story.

mcseanerson > My citroen won't start 02/21/2015 at 01:18

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So it's like diamonds? A good thing is good because it's expensive and it's expensive because we charge a lot for it?

mcseanerson > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:20

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Personally I love a nice cheap interior. I'm especially fond of late 80s early 90s japanese interiors with their well defined hard plastic shapes and pseudo-tweed material on the seats. That stuff holds up and is easy to clean.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > mcseanerson 02/21/2015 at 01:23

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This is exactly what I'm talking about, 80's and 90's interiors rocked the cheap materials and held up amazingly.

My citroen won't start > mcseanerson 02/21/2015 at 01:24

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Exactly, just like wood interiors.

My citroen won't start > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:26

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Perhaps, but would you want an Audi A8 with a hard plastic interior?

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > Clown Shoe Pilot 02/21/2015 at 01:33

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Any option is gonna cost way more than parts, labor, and any other possible cost by a long shot.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > My citroen won't start 02/21/2015 at 01:37

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No, luxury cars make sense to have plush interiors. They are expected to be the best of the best. But does a Diesel Jetta need a soft touch dash to be a nice car? I don't think so.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > Blake Noble 02/21/2015 at 01:39

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I did not know this, but I guess someone has to have started this frankly ridiculous trend.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > GhostZ 02/21/2015 at 01:40

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You make a fair point, and it seems kind of skeezy of manufacturers to send only the best of the best to be reviewed. Completely expected, but skeezy nonetheless.

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:42

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Not a true GT. It doesn't have the red dash trim, and it has a M47, rather than the M46. (You can tell, because the M46 was a 4-speed with an OD in the center of the knob, while the M47 was a 5-speed.) Plus, the 242GT got a black interior with red piping, and was only available with the early-style dash, rather than the post-81 dash shown.

/Volvo240geekery

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 02/21/2015 at 01:43

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I did not know this, but thank you for the insight! I just find old Volvo interiors particularly appealing in their simplicity and small gauges.

My citroen won't start > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:44

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Me neither, but the non car guy buys something that was supposed to be mediocre but he doesn't want it to be mediocre, he wants his new car to be fancy and better. In his mind, this Jetta is his Audi A8.

DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:47

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Here's a shot of an actual GT interior:

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > My citroen won't start 02/21/2015 at 01:49

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It's a shame this mentality is so prevalent, it makes cars more fragile and expensive for all.

NotUnlessRoundIsFunny > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 01:49

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Personally I care more about how intelligently the different materials are used. For example, on a control we touch and use all the time, like the turn signal or the steering wheel, I expect them to spend a little money and use materials that feel solid and pleasant. Go ahead and use the cheap / lightweight stuff where it's not going to make a tactile difference.

One example: Mercedes used to have these heavy, solid headlight switches that just conveyed a sense of solidity and quality. Every time I used one it reinforced the perception that the car was overbuilt. The first time I drove a late-90s E Class (from the era of the Great Cheapening) it was shocking to reach over and turn this flimsy plastic knob that felt like something from the Wal Mart automotive accessory aisle.

Some carmakers do this better than others. Honda had a period where they were great at it—the stuff you touched felt great, textured and solid, and the stuff you didn't touch was probably the cheapest / lightest stuff they could find. Thinking back, I had a Scirocco that was a mixed bag of materials but the things you touched the most were pretty solid.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > DancesWithRotors - Driving Insightfully 02/21/2015 at 01:52

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Equally simple and equally beautiful. Those cars are awesome.

HideyoshiJP > mcseanerson 02/21/2015 at 02:31

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I wish I could buy a new car that looked like this inside. Hell, I just wish I could buy any 80s-90s Japanese car like this in new-like condition.

banjo cat ghost of oppo past > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 02:44

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Though in all fairness there hasn't really been compelling plastic since this era.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > banjo cat ghost of oppo past 02/21/2015 at 02:52

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Maybe then its more a design issue than a materials one?

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 02:55

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I think we should blame 2000's Chrysler and GM for ruining everything by making the cheap-y-est most plastic crap interiors ever. Which convinced every one that Plastic interior=cheap, brittle, and noisy.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > HideyoshiJP 02/21/2015 at 02:56

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HELL YES!

banjo cat ghost of oppo past > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 03:11

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It makes me think of the first time I got into a Volvo C30. Nothing wrong with it dynamically or mechanically, great little car . BUT sitting down I was met with a vast, convex plane of near featureless plastic but for a mild texture, and two lonely air vents near either A pillar. There is a minimalist center console as thin a strip as a 90's Sony stereo, almost too Swedish in that way. My soul felt as dark and barren as what lay before me, pretty much extending beyond my peripheral into the nothingness. Especially when you consider top models once cost almost $40k out the door.

Axial > My citroen won't start 02/21/2015 at 03:53

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An Audi A8 does have a hard plastic interior. They just obfuscate it very well with texturing and some inlays.

My citroen won't start > Axial 02/21/2015 at 04:03

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But nothing compared to the medieval materials used in that Volvo.

E. Julius > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 05:51

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Personally I hate "alcantara".

DrScientist > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 07:58

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youre mixing up your sensory inputs.

hard plastics can assuredly be beautiful (visual perception).

hard plastics are (in most cases) less satisfying and/or pleasurable than the "rich" materials (leather, wood, leather, wood, leather, leather, wood, and sometimes alcantara) to the touch (tactile sensation).

if youre only experiencing this interior via a photograph, the latter does not matter.

but take the same "beautiful-in-appearance" interior in both hard plastic vs wood and leather, and im sure you'll choose the wood and leather.

DrScientist > Clown Shoe Pilot 02/21/2015 at 08:00

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how much was the equivalently sized piece of pleather?

Twinpowermeansoneturbo > Big Bubba Ray 02/21/2015 at 09:24

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Beat me to it.

AMGWTFBBQ > banjo cat ghost of oppo past 02/21/2015 at 10:06

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I felt the same way every time I got in my sister's Volvo. It looks like it's made to be cleaned with a garden hose.

Griffen > mcseanerson 02/21/2015 at 10:47

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absolutely! I would much rather have a well designed, well laid out, functional dash made of cheap durable materials than the current crop of over designed, over styled, parts thrown at it randomly pieces covered in soft touch padded quilted delicate stuff they do it in now. There are 3 places that need to be soft in a car. Where my left elbow rest, my right elbow rests, and where but butt rests. Which is funny because a lot of newer cars seem to have really poorly placed elbow/arm areas on the door panel.

Snooder87 > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 12:22

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It's especially irritating when people knock cadillac for having glossy plastic.

I like the hard black plastic dammit. It looks cool and futuristic and shit. Wood looks old and classic, which is nice, but not when I'm driving a car that on the outside looks like it should be on hover wheels but on the inside looks like the interior came from 1930.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > DrScientist 02/21/2015 at 12:54

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I'm not mixing up sensory inputs, I just may value different things in car interiors than you do. To me, hard plastics are more durable, easier to clean, and can look damn fantastic, and what the dashboard feels like is much less important.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > E. Julius 02/21/2015 at 12:56

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I have little experience with it, I'm sure its a wonder of modern upholstery but I don't think the premium it demands is justifiable.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > AMGWTFBBQ 02/21/2015 at 12:57

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Then maybe the way forward for automakers is a few steps back? I may be in the minority, but 80's interiors look pretty timeless to me.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 02/21/2015 at 12:59

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Exactly, Ford for the win! Kidding of course, I'm sure they're guilty of the same crimes.

E. Julius > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 12:59

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It's not a "wonder of modern upholstery", it's fake suede invented in the 70s. Some people really like it. It's not really my thing.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > E. Julius 02/21/2015 at 13:00

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I was not aware of this with how fetishized it is by certain media sources, its almost even more ridiculous thinking about people paying thousands for it now.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 13:08

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yeah Ford's interiors in the previous decades weren't great but they were leaps better than the GM and Chrysler interior.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 13:11

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and a quality issue. Plastic doesn't have to mean poor build quality.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > banjo cat ghost of oppo past 02/21/2015 at 13:13

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I actually love the c30,s40,v50 interiors But I'm a 90's Honda guy so I like simplistic designs.

E. Julius > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 13:15

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Yeah some people think it's this magical material just because it's featured in a lot of high end cars and pricey option packages. Personally I think it's just a decent product with some phenomenal marketing behind it, and manufacturers have been willing to take advantage of this because it's a "premium" material with a higher profit margin. I've driven a few cars that had it, some more of it than others.

I would want it absolutely nowhere near my steering wheel or seat. It can look nice on a dash, but for real world use I think leather is superior since it won't get any lines or funny patterns in it when something touches it. I suppose it's better than flock for the interior of storage compartments, but that sort of depends on what I'd I kelt put in the carpet. The only place I think it works really well is the headliner, although a high quality cloth headliner could give it a run for its money in my opinion.

DrScientist > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 13:42

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dont mean to be a pig about it, so i'll only say this one more time.

many interiors look quite nice

or. . . Dare I say. . . Beautiful?

these are visual descriptions.

my current memory of reviews of hard-plastic interior cars mentions their tactile nature , not their visual/spatial design. they always say it the touch and feel of these plastics. in fact why even use the qualifier "hard" if youre not referring to something you can touch or feel or handle.

i do even vaguely remember some reviews (maybe new camaro?) that laud the overall design, but criticize the touch of the hard plastics.

you didnt mention your opinion on the feeling of the hard plastics in your original post. or that the feel doesnt matter to you much.

also... to shift the conversation a little bit. your statement about hard plastics being fine for decades is true. and in fact they are still fine for many cars today. but... 2 issues with the statement.

1. leathers and wood have been around (and standard) in the finer automobiles of the world for nearly ever. go check even a seventies or eighties jaguar or mercedes. today, these once-luxury brands are shifting to more economical options. and with the economy comes the hard plastics. the the issue many reviewers have can be framed as such: "is it still a ' mercedes ' if it has an interior you don't want to rub your face on?"

2. when a new [enter domestic or korean brand here] enters the market and is positioned as an alternative to a [enter european or other luxury brand here] the seemingly omnipresent characteristic among the former brands is the use of hard plastics in the interior. the reviewer then asks: "can this new entrant truly be a competitor if it has these hard plastics?"

havent heard anyone discount the utility and economy of hard plastics. only bring up their questionable use in the two scenarios above. (and even occasionally compliment their design)

DrScientist > Griffen 02/21/2015 at 13:45

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the difference between a cheap plastic steering wheel, and a wood steering wheel, leather steering wheel, or even a chunky alcantara wheel, are huge. do not confuse "soft" with "nice to touch."

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > DrScientist 02/21/2015 at 14:38

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I am certainly not discounting the merits of soft-touch materials in cars, it certainly adds an air of quality when you would happily rub your face on the dashboard because it is so plush. All I am calling into question is the need for the entry level brands to match the high standards that luxury brands are held to.

To address your comment, I do not mind the feel of hard plastics, and while leather wrapped or rubberized surfaces are certainly nicer to feel, objects that I would not be touching on a daily basis being given this treatment seems a bit silly to me. But this is only my opinion.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 02/21/2015 at 14:39

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But it is generally assumed in today's world that hard plastic = poor quality, and I think this assumption is unfair.

DrScientist > whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU 02/21/2015 at 16:26

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thats exactly right.

the only time that these entry level cars should be questioned on their use of hard plastics, is 1) for the most economical option within an otherwise high luxury brand. eg is the CLA a true mercedes, and 2) when a car is positioned from a marketing standpoint against a luxury brand, eg, the mustang as a potential 3/4 series alternative.

whiskeybusiness NOW A DANGER TO CROWDS NEAR YOU > DrScientist 02/21/2015 at 17:19

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I wholly agree. Save the expensive stuff for the expensive or high status cars, and let the rest remain simple and inexpensive.